My humble opinion on why this MUD isn't growing

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12 Aug 2007 16:46 #5548 by Lunar_Parhelion
* WARNING: PERSONAL OPINION AND FRUSTRATION *

I'v mumbled it hundreds of times, and I'll continue to mumble it, much to the disgust of those who are at a disagreement with me:

So long as we are advertising ourselves as one type of MUD (RPI) and then focusing on developing the game as another type of MUD (Hack&Slash with RP) we will continue to have difficulty in recruiting and KEEPING new players -- perhaps even to the point of alienating those new players enough to ward against ever convincing them to come back.  The audience we have targetted is a narrow nook audience, and for all the gossip and chit-chat I've had with members of that audience (and yes, I have talked to a several dozen people who consider themselves to be a part of it), I am inclined to believe that they will not tolerate "sharing" their game with members from the broader, more-common "Letz kill trollz" group you'll find on just about every other MUD ever created.

That opinion is the summation for several years of personal experience, conversation, and rumor-mongering, and I am not going to change it or shut up about it until someone can atleast explain to me why I would be wrong.  You simply cannot build a "high quality" product that is designed to make everyone in your given industry happy -- perhaps a good real-world example of this was the hype and fall of Oblivion, which ultimately compromised its storytelling for next-gen graphics and infinite "dungeon loot" adventures.


Fingers can certainly be pointed at the creators for the game's "blandness" -- there are many, many things that I think that the creator staff could do to try and get the game together.  There are many holes and inconsistencies in the theme of the game that need to be patched, written, rewritten, built, and released -- but these sorts of things are very heavy undertakings, because you can't simply dismiss all the OTHER things that must be done in the game (such as missing skills, unnoticeable weather, incomplete or unbalanced features, etc) on top of other on-goings in the creator world -- personal quotas, QC (which takes up a LOT of time), and PR (which ranges from advertising to hiring to answering issues).  When it all comes down to it, we don't have as many resources as we'd like, and we still have to live our real lives too.

But the players have a bit of responsibility to claim, too.  The playerbase's actions, willingness to cope with what the game has to offer for now (we all know AL is incomplete), and support (which ranges from simple praise for random stuff you like to actually opening productive discussions about the game to submitting the random idea now and again) have a LOT to do with my (and I would assume others') morale -- I don't need a thank you or appreciation for everything I do, but I would like to think that the effort I put into making AL the best game it can be will not be wasted in the long run on a community that frequently attempts to get the best of one another.

Here's some of the things that really grinds my own morale into the ground -- telling me that many of the players on this game are not really committed to seeing AL become any better or progress, hasn't any respect/appreciation for ANY work that goes into the game, or (worst of all) doesn't have ANY intention what-so-ever to actually roleplay to their best abilities:
  • Dropping in on 'lonely' players for "random RP," only to find them super-spamming a skill -- nothing like getting about 40-100 lines of near-instantaneous 'up&enter' commands.
  • Finding players doing illogical or unrealistic things while skill-training -- this includes:
    • *cough* lying down prone during certain ...activities...
    • 'sparring' until their body and/or limbs are to a near-liquified state (that is, just short of being broken and removed) and then pretending to not notice...
    • inconsistent character concepts -- i.e, the "I do whatever" concepts that do... whatever... whenever.
    • performing activities without ANY regard to surroundings -- this is the WORST in towns and town-like areas... vNPCs are as real as NPCs and players in this game.  Please do not 'abuse code' by ignoring the fact that in any town with a population (even small ones, like villages), you as a foreigner will probably get noticed doing just about anything.
    • ...just because something has 'mercy off' in the game, doesn't mean it was put there for you so you can train yourself to unconsciousness over and over...
    • ...and remember that the fatigue descriptions are accurate:  disoriented, faint, and system shocked people do not have the energy to go "Wassup dawg?" and run the Terrinor marathon.
  • players using NPCs for punching bags
  • players repetitively killing the same NPC over and over because it is easy or it has a few farthings on it somewhere
  • see above
  • players using obvious OOC communication -- and trust me, we're not dumb, we see it -- to coordinate, "cheat the system", or trade game secrets.
  • ...and a biggie, players willfully killing one another in a certain area to be immediately ressurected with the goal of getting around something IC (although admittedly difficult), and then not even ICly acknowledging the severity of what had just taken place.

A lot of what I added into that list are my personal ideas for what qualifies as just "bad RP," but many of the players who do these sorts of things have been here for a very long time -- they are not unschooled "noobs."  A lot of them are also the sorts of the things that could very well turn off new players on the chance that they DO run into other people.

It's also a slap in the face when I'm watching player discussions or when I'm talking to people about what they want in the game, and I hear a lot of opposition towards some very basic things in favor of new features that will allow them to further compete with players or serve no real overwhelming purpose in the game -- the most shining example being a debate between cooking and alchemy.  While nearly every character on the game may know the very basics of cooking (and yes, it can be a very interesting skill if one were to spend time with it, even building an entire concept on it), alchemy is a much more esoteric subject that only a few would logically seek out to learn and master --- yet its alchemy that the players seem to want to push for, even though it serves a much smaller realistic purpose, and its sort of like trying to pluck feathers off an unhatched chicken.

There's also this idea that "average" roles are very bad -- for example, I've heard someone say that playing a tailor or cook or messenger would be a boring and unrewarding role because "you can do it in real life."  Well... you may can do those sorts of things IRL, but you forget you're not IN real life -- the life of a normal craftsman or peon is a DANGEROUS one, and there's a great deal more to those roles than "dood, my combat sux."  At times, I get so frustrated with dealing with the mentality that the only good character concept is the one involving high combat/high magic and monster slaying, that I just have to make myself get offline.  In reality, you can perform ALL of the crafting skills in-real-life... so taking this logic, why don't we just give players a way to get anything in the game easily (more kewl loot!), remove all the skills from the game, and just leave magic and combat?  Certainly is what people want to focus on, right? ...Oh, wait... that sounds an aweful like your run-of-the-mill diku, doesn't it?

Those average roles are unrewarding because players don't want to have to depend on one another and work with one another in an environment where their character is trying to survive.  People are spending too much time OOCly looking out for possible "threats" to their character before they even form rather than carrying on with their IC business -- examples being those 'uber' characters who stomp out any budding storyline that may cross path with their character at a later date, or those who think "OMG!  HE WUZ SNEAKING AROUND IN ZE WOODZ!" is an excellent reason to kill someone.  Rather than buy materials from someone else who's already accomplished in something, they'd rather just learn the skill themselves.  With travel so easy and danger-free, why send someone to do something when you can pop across the world in 30 minutes yourself?



... That turned out to be a bigger derailed frustrations post than I had intended, but.. to get back to the original topic... MY humble opinion about why AL isn't growing? It's because there's too many lazy, self-centered people on the game who are just in it for themselves.




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12 Aug 2007 19:19 #5549 by Devon Mullane
The truth is rarely popular, and what's popular is rarely the truth. So there you have it, I suppose I myself might not have had the balls to be quite so frank about it but your list is pretty much my biggest aggravations. However, you should keep in mind the players will manipulate anything you let them. For instance, the lying down while training certain skills. You used to be able to do it while logging, and so people did it. You realize the older players are the biggest offenders, they know the ins and outs of skill building and where this or that might be, thusly they play off of vast amounts of meta-knowledge.

In fact, the older players come from a time when AL WAS a hack and slash mud. Therefore it would be highly reasonable to think that they might still possess some of those traits as we try to shape AL to the image it asks to portray. However, we do have some very good players both old and new. And I offer my sincere thanks to you guys for making AL so much damn fun.

I must play devil's advocate in one area though which is the 'mediocre' role. You are right, I've been told many times, "Just learn to do it yourself." Ever try that one IRL? Your TV is broken, learn to repair it and you wouldn't need a repairman. Most people play with a single-player frame of mind, they don't care what others can do for them, only what they can do for themselves. It's true of even our best players, many of them have a 'me me me' complex. The world doesn't revolve around any one player.

However, the vNPCs ARE the mediocre roles. When there are twenty people on, is it so unfathomable to think they might be Terrinor's interesting/best roles? However, interesting/best does not mean uber. When there isn't much to do, people skill-build. Believe it or not, most twinks are born out of boredom or lack of a better activity. Give players things to do and they will do that instead. That is my motto. There is an old game designers motto which goes, "Players don't know what the $*(# they want." Which is true, it is so true. Give them the choice between a piece of food and a sword, and they'll go, "What's the food do? It's just food? Oh, then give me the sword."

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12 Aug 2007 19:53 #5550 by BaddieX51
I'd just like to adress one of those things since a lot of them I agree with. Crafting.

While it is entirely possible to play a crafter character, it is NOT possible to become very good at it. With the extreme lack of guidance with crafts and the difficulty with starting them... a crafter character is near impossible to make an enjoy. You get more frustration out of a crafter than anything else. Not only are you a prime target for 'bad roleplayers' to strike down (which they have and do enjoy doing) but you cannot even make simple objects of your chosen craft. I know what you might say "find someone IC that knows about it" but thats just it... there are few crafters IC that can help you with your craft. On top of this, the skills 'lock' after a while and become impossibly hard to raise. If there is to be a heavy craftsman population crafts need to be more workable. As they are its more infuriating than any other element of the game. As well, I have seen it drive players away a number of times. I believe there was even someone that said after attempting to craft repeatedly that they don't have the patience for this game. Essentially, crafts are rediculously hard to learn, thats the primary reason I believe that there are no craftsmen. Don't take this as an insult, but is possible that having access to all the information you'd like on crafts as a Creator has blinded you a little to how difficult it really is to learn these things in character. But without any assistance from master craftsman (who very few to none exist in some fields) it is almost not worth the time to try and learn since it will just end up capping before you can do anything really 'useful' to other people.

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12 Aug 2007 20:35 #5551 by Lunar_Parhelion

I'd just like to adress one of those things since a lot of them I agree with. Crafting.

While it is entirely possible to play a crafter character, it is NOT possible to become very good at it. With the extreme lack of guidance with crafts and the difficulty with starting them... a crafter character is near impossible to make an enjoy. You get more frustration out of a crafter than anything else. Not only are you a prime target for 'bad roleplayers' to strike down (which they have and do enjoy doing) but you cannot even make simple objects of your chosen craft. I know what you might say "find someone IC that knows about it" but thats just it... there are few crafters IC that can help you with your craft. On top of this, the skills 'lock' after a while and become impossibly hard to raise. If there is to be a heavy craftsman population crafts need to be more workable. As they are its more infuriating than any other element of the game. As well, I have seen it drive players away a number of times. I believe there was even someone that said after attempting to craft repeatedly that they don't have the patience for this game. Essentially, crafts are rediculously hard to learn, thats the primary reason I believe that there are no craftsmen. Don't take this as an insult, but is possible that having access to all the information you'd like on crafts as a Creator has blinded you a little to how difficult it really is to learn these things in character. But without any assistance from master craftsman (who very few to none exist in some fields) it is almost not worth the time to try and learn since it will just end up capping before you can do anything really 'useful' to other people.



There's some truth in this -- I draw almost all of my experience and opinions about the game as a player, not a creator, because that's how I grew up on this game. And if there was something I absolutely hated doing above all was trying to learn how to do something -- not as a player, but as a character. Train, train, train, train... I would go a whole week before I could figure out how to whittle a stick into a slightly straighter stick.

But that is a balance issue, and I think it also has to do with how incomplete and "thrown together" the crafting skills are; and of course, in a more ideal situation, there would be more going on in the world that would provide some 'distraction' for players as they learn (so it doesn't SEEM to take so long). But here is something that even the players can help out with -- by submitting more craftables, or even making proposals about what they feel would make more sense (for example, should whittling a pointy stick or a wooden laser cannon be more difficult, and if so, by how much?). Creators may have to deal with the code and making things fit together, but the players can definitely have their say in the world by doing what we often do not have the time to do or miss (that is, writing and less obvious game content).

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12 Aug 2007 23:13 #5552 by Asteris

There's some truth in this -- I draw almost all of my experience and opinions about the game as a player, not a creator, because that's how I grew up on this game.  And if there was something I absolutely hated doing above all was trying to learn how to do something -- not as a player, but as a character.  Train, train, train, train... I would go a whole week before I could figure out how to whittle a stick into a slightly straighter stick.  

But that is a balance issue, and I think it also has to do with how incomplete and "thrown together" the crafting skills are; and of course, in a more ideal situation, there would be more going on in the world that would provide some 'distraction' for players as they learn (so it doesn't SEEM to take so long).  But here is something that even the players can help out with -- by submitting more craftables, or even making proposals about what they feel would make more sense (for example, should whittling a pointy stick or a wooden laser cannon be more difficult, and if so, by how much?).  Creators may have to deal with the code and making things fit together, but the players can definitely have their say in the world by doing what we often do not have the time to do or miss (that is, writing and less obvious game content).


In a recent conversation with a particular creator who may or may not wish to remain anonymous (I'll err on the side of the former) it was repeatedly brought up just how -big- the craftable item list was and how small a percentage of those items were made and used by players. There are a few reasons for this one is simply that players aren't awayre of most of the things that can be made and there's really no way of figuring out all of them without trying out random word combinations, many of which aren't exactly common or easily concieved items. Secondly, players tend to want the best of what's available. Currently, it is far easier to buy the best containers, the best weapons, the best armor that anyone knows about than it is to make anything else. People don't want intermediary items, the canvas backpacks that characters start with are rapidly replaced by the largest possible containers, most people (there are several notable exceptions) craft for one of two reasons 1) to make as much money as quickly as possible (something that is very difficult to do with the undeveloped markets system) or 2) for the sake of improving their character/knowing everything and it helps if both these things coincide. It wouldn't be terribly difficult to make some of the things on the item list visible to players; have a wandering tinker/pawnbroker/crafter come through and explain various 'new' items to local crafters. Leak a few things into a shop (and hope hoarders don't get to everything first) or strike random folks with crafting knowhow with sudden ephiphines so they can be great inventors.

Another problem is in the community: One can't furnish a house because 1) over fifty items in a house will lose you all of it next time the server hiccups 2) leaving -anything- in a house, crude furniture included, is likely to get vandalized or stolen almost immediately without any reason or provoctation 3) nobody is willing to pay for anything, goods or services because it's so difficult to make money that paying an entertainer, begger, or even a crafter for goods rendered is just way too much of a hassle when one can steal just about anything one wants or make it themselves with less trouble. 4) people hoarde things and never use them or show them to people to whom they would be useful so story rarely develops surrounding that sort of thing because everyone's paranoid that their buddy will get some privelage or somesuch nonsense by getting a hold of that unique thingy you've had under your shop counter for an IRL year or two without ever pulling it out to so much as look at it. Use it as a bargaining chip, give it to someone who will make life interesting with it, don't just let rare or unique items sit and be hoarded for someone to find down the road when you accidentally let your shop run out of money so they can do exactly the same thing with it. Really, the only way to stop these things is to just make a clear effort to be an example to the contrary, don't try to be a perfect hard-ass character, be genereous, have lapses of judgement, play as an example to others, take risks funding crafters just starting out, heck start a patron client system and offer financial support for those under you in return for company, favors, and building a power structure. We've really got to start making characters that open up to and help one another rather than everyone playing fiercely independant jacks of all trade. Once we've got a nice social structure put together -then- we can worry about outsiders.

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12 Aug 2007 23:25 #5553 by Mark

So long as we are advertising ourselves as one type of MUD (RPI) and then focusing on developing the game as another type of MUD (Hack&Slash with RP)

<snip>

... That turned out to be a bigger derailed frustrations post than I had intended, but.. to get back to the original topic... MY humble opinion about why AL isn't growing?  It's because there's too many lazy, self-centered people on the game who are just in it for themselves.


We are a beta RPI mud & we are not focusing on developing the mud as anything else. I am not going to speculate on your reasons for posting this falsehood, but I am not going to tolerate it either. The frustrations board is to vent about things that are not getting handled in game, not to post false information. Yes, it is obvious there are things we need to improve, but it should also be obvious that we have made significant progress towards our goals as an RPI mud in open status, and are being recognized as such.

For the list of things that frustrate you, this is a good thing to have, and I suggest they be taken up on a one by one basis in game, and solutions be devised to handle them. (Ideally by removing any benefit with code, or having solutions to monitor abuse) The minimum level of quality we expect in players is that they "Outperform an npc". If this is not happening, then they have the wrong game. If it is happening, then the player should be left alone to enjoy themselves.

The rest of your post is frustrations, and I will take it as such, except for the generalized personal attack at the end. I realize you haven't specified anyone, but it is still a personal attack, which is not allowed at AL. You may attack lazyness as a behaviour, but you may not specify that a person is lazy and attack *them* for it. If this is not clearly understood as a rule, it needs some more visibility.

That said, I want you to know (without any doubt) that I really appreciate all your efforts and drive to improve AL and you are doing an excellent job of it; I am only irritated by some of the things I have seen in this post.

Bear in mind that you have a full license to push for improvements that will improve our RPI aspect, whether it be suggesting ideas (preferably ones that are easy to implement), or implementing them yourself. The main complaint I have heard of late, however, is that there aren't enough creators organizing RPE's and hosting them at a recommended playing time advertised in advance.

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16 Aug 2007 19:57 #5554 by Musica


<snip>
And if there was something I absolutely hated doing above all was trying to learn how to do something -- not as a player, but as a character.  Train, train, train, train... I would go a whole week before I could figure out how to whittle a stick into a slightly straighter stick.  
<snip>


I've found this and the lack of knowledge about what can be made intensely frustrating. I start out as, say, a weaver. I, as a player, know that there are items out there to weave. I've even seen a few of said items. But a real weaver journeyman would know a ton of items already, and would know exactly what to try to sell where. Instead, I'm reduced to fumbling around with grass for an RL week, then taking my few objects to nearly every store in the nearest town, hoping even one item will sell. Of course, none of them do. So now I have a perfectly good character concept and nothing to show for it.

What always ends up happening is that I reroll and hope for something I (or my sister) know more about. Is there a way we can make the skillsystem more intuitive?

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16 Aug 2007 23:59 #5555 by ladyimp


<snip>
And if there was something I absolutely hated doing above all was trying to learn how to do something -- not as a player, but as a character. Train, train, train, train... I would go a whole week before I could figure out how to whittle a stick into a slightly straighter stick.
<snip>


I've found this and the lack of knowledge about what can be made intensely frustrating. I start out as, say, a weaver. I, as a player, know that there are items out there to weave. I've even seen a few of said items. But a real weaver journeyman would know a ton of items already, and would know exactly what to try to sell where. Instead, I'm reduced to fumbling around with grass for an RL week, then taking my few objects to nearly every store in the nearest town, hoping even one item will sell. Of course, none of them do. So now I have a perfectly good character concept and nothing to show for it.

What always ends up happening is that I reroll and hope for something I (or my sister) know more about. Is there a way we can make the skillsystem more intuitive?




This is the essence of my guidance below....

Your character is a -person-, not a profession



My advice (and rather tongue in cheek frustration) about this, was and remains (It's in the newbie section of the forums here, and I've [chat]ted it and [newbie]d it, and said it in the mentor area and in meditative oocly says to others and perhaps I should submit a help file about it in case that would work for conveying the message better... But nooooo, don't listen to the imp...) -

Would you walk into the MUD, this or any, expecting to play a 'High level wizard' or 'King' or 'Master Historian' or similar? Probably not; many players even very new accept that there are roles that one must train for and are not ready to walk into. Though there are 'power gamers' who think they should be able to anyway.

If you were in a combat mud, you would not expect to log into the game and from that newbie state be able to play out your warrior/wizard/priest/thief able to cast any spell, stab any back, cut down any monster. You start at level one; you have some 'training' (which is your play! Your grinding or reading help files or what not, very ooc and/or tedious especially if you are doing it 'alone'!) and that increases your power and competency. You may be able to train yourself, most first timers really prosper better under the guidance of a more experienced player or other.

So here you are, come to Accursed Lands.

And you say to yourself, and perhaps the steps of character creation help delude you, here I will walk into the game, -already- a highly competent 'weaver' (or any of the other crafts, any of the other 'paths' through life). My character already has 'done' this. In truth, you are walking into a game of incredible complexity, and your 'character creation' information is little more then a teaser and an invitation into thinking more of your character's personality and choices.

No matter what you think, your character newly made is -NOT- a trained and accomplished 'weaver'. If you think it is, try to play it as so. What will occur is exactly what you have described above... a LOT of time of frustration, not knowing anything you need to, not being able to play out the role.

So, people, stop trying to do what you cannot; frustration in this case is a 'warning' and 'guide' to the fact that what you are trying to do is counter to what the very essence of the game is.

You are NOT playing a master weaver, or even an apprentice weaver. You do not have, and are not allowed to 'vNPC' your apprenticeship. All you have, especially if you have never personally experienced the aspects of your role -here- before, is a character that can -try-. You don't know nuttin, you cannot back up your character's story with the details it would know....

That is a "VERY STRONG HINT" that however wonderful and intricate your 'vNPC' storyline for your character is, *cough* you should not be trying to play that one out, at least yet. The game is about interactive stories anyway, the focus I've noticed for a while now on stuff you 'make up solo' (Even though it's made really well!) and then brought into the game as something done in the past of your character's life... come on people. If you cannot do what your background says you should be able to do... that's a really strong hint that when your character talks about that background, it's going to sound like a liar or similar.



So, play out what you -can-?



You have a character that can only fumble with materials and try to make stuff and usually fails (or is marvelously gifted and can make many even hard things, after just being shown how to start it even once!) but doesnt know what to do, what to do it with, how to do things, where to sell them....

That is the character you HAVE! What is this silliness of saying, 'No, I am already a (high level) weaver. I started play that way!' That's -just- like walking into any hack and slash mud as a level 1 newbie and attempting to do things that only a high level character can do.

And because you cannot, you get frustrated, and instead of looking at it and seeing (saying to yourself) Whups, ok, I picked a storyline ahead of it's time; lets scale it back, and I am this -Exact same character- at the beginning of it's quest for skill and knowledge... now -THAT- I can support..... You demand to be granted access oocly to what you need to be able to play your high level crafter.

You are robbing yourself and one or more other players, of the chance to play out a very interesting, in depth, and roleplay intensive apprenticeship.

No, you are saying, I -wont- play that. I am already a master. All I can answer to that, is "ahh, no. Wrong". if you were, you would not have this problem at all. And you are denying yourself some incredibly interesting roleplay, and those that would interact with you as well. For the essense of this game is -not- solo. Not virtual. It's not about, "I will make up a story, then go from there" It's about living out that story, interactively with others. Improvisation.

You are in a very odd sense, 'cheating', when you make up a backstory that you cannot play out. You are saying, these things happened to me, and this was the result, and this was what I gained. That's not how this game works. That stuff is played out here. That's what here's all about! And maybe it won't happen. Maybe that character will never learn the art of weaving. But you can play a person that always wanted to be a weaver, but ended up.... lets see. 'A legless slave to a bandit' or one of the many other possible paths for it's life instead? Now, -that's- roleplaying out your character's growth and apprenticeship. And there's many other variant possible futures, all of which, you -do- have the skills to play out. And many of which DO include you learning what you wanted to learn.




"So now I have a perfectly good character concept and nothing to show for it."

Please, please please. If this is 'true', then scaling it back, to the beginning of the apprenticeship time, will work just as well.

If you cannot do this successfully, then you do NOT have a perfectly good character concept. Instead, you have a profession concept, and are calling it a character. You were a real human being before you learned what they taught you in first grade, second grade, on your first day of college, on your first day of work.

If you cannot 'roleplay yourself' as if you had not had these things yet... that's what a perfectly good character concept is. It's a -person-. Not a profession. You are you, even if we train you to be a jet fighter pilot, a trash collector, a fireman, a researcher working with deadly diseases, a deep sea diver, or a exotic dancer. Or even all of these things. You are still you, ever changing. Not what you have learned, but the person you are and continually grow and change as, while still being -you-.




I really hope this helps. I highlight a lot of negative things here, and make a purposeful, direct comparison between what I think a great many of us as players are trying to do and showing it as a form of inappropriate powergaming. Cause really, it is. You don't log in here as a high level -anything-. But you can become it. Earn it, develop it, roleplay out every step of -becoming- it; or spending a full lifetime in pursuit, however long or short that is.


Good luck, and deep joy, to every one of us.

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17 Aug 2007 01:43 #5556 by Synthesis
The problem with your long-winded suggestion, LadyImp, is that nobody wants to play a completely clueless, helpless, harmless mook for more than a little while. After about a month of being a mook, every normal person starts to wonder, "Why in the hell am I wasting my time roleplaying being a useless halfwit?"

Your contention that new characters must be "low level" is more relevant to a hack and slash MUD, which Accursed Lands is not. Granted, no character should start out being totally awesome. At the same time, if your backstory states that you were trained by a carpenter, you damn well ought to be able to put together a table.

Not to mention the sad fact that having a bunch of clueless newbs running around spam-training is boring. Spam-training is -not- why this MUD was created, but that's what most people spend most of their time doing, because of the abject necessity of it.

So jump off your high (and experienced) horse, and try to take a little different perspective.

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17 Aug 2007 01:51 #5557 by Musica

My advice (and rather tongue in cheek frustration) about this, was and remains (It's in the newbie section of the forums here, and I've [chat]ted it and [newbie]d it, and said it in the mentor area and in meditative oocly says to others and perhaps I should submit a help file about it in case that would work for conveying the message better... But nooooo, don't listen to the imp...) -


This seems to be *the* topic to get shot down in. This is why whatever good ideas happen to appear in my head generally don't get spoken.

(quietly) Perhaps one of the reasons you seem to feel no one listens to you is that people hate being lectured.

It's very easy to say "learn!" "have patience!" and "buckle down!" when you've had a wide basis of knowledge for a long time. I have a thought, though... Learning this system isn't much fun. It's not intuitive, the syntax is sometimes difficult (see how to 'craft' bird feathers, for a particularly annoying example). People want to play these games for fun, not for work.

I note above that Xotl would like the player characters to outperform an NPC. An attempt such as mine to make a journeyman weaver far outperforms any NPC, thus I would feel justified in doing so again. If this does not please you, I can be but merely sorry it does not.

No, you are saying, I -wont- play that. I am already a master. All I can answer to that, is "ahh, no. Wrong". if you were, you would not have this problem at all.


Please, please, PLEASE don't assume people will say that. It really frustrates me to be so judged when you can't possibly know what I'd say. It's like you've automatically assumed the absolute worst about me. And I've noticed when you assume the absolute worst about people, and treat them that way, they often see no reason to try to be any better.

I really hope this helps. I highlight a lot of negative things here, and make a purposeful, direct comparison between what I think a great many of us as players are trying to do and showing it as a form of inappropriate powergaming. Cause really, it is. You don't log in here as a high level -anything-. But you can become it. Earn it, develop it, roleplay out every step of -becoming- it; or spending a full lifetime in pursuit, however long or short that is.


Look, we've got some basic differences between us here. You're totally immersed in the game. That's fine. I'm not. I come here to RP lightly and have fun, without overly straining my patience in learning every nuance of the system. If you don't like that, I'm sorry. I like this game quite a bit, but we've obviously on two different levels here.

And I really hate being lectured... makes me feel like I'm 5 years old and ate a cookie before dinner.

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