Skill Spamming

06 Oct 2007 17:13 #5495 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
The code doesn't roleplay for you, it only determines what is or isn't real. What do you in the hard coded world is still your choice. If you have easy access to food, then you will not appear genuine if you pretend to be starved for food.

Real life for example, could be considered a very complex hard coded world. You can choose to do anything you want, you can even 'roleplay' in real life. You can try to achieve things in real life, but there are no guarantees that you'll achieve what you want. You can slouch around in real life. There are plenty of slouches who believe themselves very capable. We'll never know until they do something.

Real life is the system by which most people will draw their conclusions on what is good roleplay. People think to themselves, "I've seen beggars in the city. There was a really cool enigmatic beggar in my favorite fantasy series. I would love to roleplay a beggar." However, does beggaring make sense in the world where you want to play a beggar? If not, what factors are present in other worlds that allow for beggars that are not present in Accursed Lands? Discover the factors. Support adjustments that make the AL more realistic. Play a real beggar.

I had a discussion with someone about people who run around wearing full heavy plate head to toe all the time. Horrible roleplay right? Only if you're comparing it to another system, the real life system. In real life, you have a choice to cover yourself with steel. Why doesn't anyone do it? Because it doesn't make sense. It's hot and heavy, the streets are safe. It's not worth it. Could you if you wanted to? Yes.

Instead of branding these people as 'twinks' and high horsing on them, consider that they are actually doing what they consider makes sense in the given world. You might be the one who is roleplaying badly by ignoring what is in front of you and drawing your standards from the real life world. If you want the game world to more closely reflect what you want it to be, what you can do is support changes to make the code more realistic. Everything else will fall into place, without the conflicts that come from differing roleplay styles.

Support the focus on realism in Accursed Lands. Support food scarcity and increased armor weight, anything that you believe that would make the world more real.

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06 Oct 2007 17:40 #5496 by Aesuna
Replied by Aesuna on topic Re: Skill Spamming
You talk as if the code in AL is completed. You act like it's impossible if it hasn't been implemented. Do you want all of the baker NPCs out of the game because cooking isn't coded yet? Do you think it's perfectly fine when people go around killing every NPC just because of a flaw in some guard's AI? Do you believe that kiisici are extinct because your character can't find one in the game world? Can you not 'squirm' because there's no hard-coded feeling for it? If you cannot find a cow in the game, is there no such thing as beef?

And, what scares me most of all: Do you find a bug and consider it a viable part of the world? Do you abuse it with the justification that 'if it's in the code, it's must be real'?

Accursed Lands strives for realism, but in the end, Accursed Lands is in BETA. It is not perfect, but everyone is expected to overlook the incomplete things for the time being while they look for bugs and enjoy what's been made.

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06 Oct 2007 18:14 #5497 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
I talk as if the goals have strayed elsewhere. I talk as if the average player treats the hard coded world as if it's something that must be endured, not respected. I talk because there has been in a shift in public perception as to what Accursed Lands should be moving towards. I talk because progress is made toward what players want, and I don't believe the players want realism anymore because they don't understand the meaning if it. That they don't understand the difference between real depth and conjured depth.

I talk not because people are filling in the gaps, but because they are replacing things where there are no gaps, and disrespectful of those who don't.

You of all people should not be talking to me about bug abuse.

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06 Oct 2007 21:08 #5498 by Shadowslay
Replied by Shadowslay on topic Re: Skill Spamming

I don't know if you read the rest of the thread or not. Some of the points you made I have already countered. It makes a lot more sense to address any counterpoints you disagree with rather than make the same points again. Though I guess restating the parts you believe in makes alot more sense than disagreeing with the parts you don't. It draws more [size=24]ATTENTION[/size] because more people are likely to actually read it.

Once again, the defintion of 'roleplay' is the issue here. Look at the way you used the word, you are referring to a very specific form of interaction. How are you going to use acting/pretending in the same thought as realism? They are practically oxymorons. If anyone is so arrogant as to believe their acting is more realistic than what someone would actually do in a situation, then I don't really know what to say.

Less incentive to fraud, by giving the frauds what they want so they aren't frauds anymore? That's like saying we can get rid of crime by giving criminals money. That way they'd have less incentive to steal.

Fair allocation of power by awarding power through social politics? Are you kidding me? It's bad enough already that AL politics have shifted OOC. All the real politics happen on AIM and other OOC channels, but I'm sure you know that already. You know, those places where people go to congratulate each other on their excellent 'roleplay' and to degrade those that don't fall into their vision of melodramatic acting.

Sorry, man, but you totally missed the point (even the literal statement) behind my post. Here:

Roleplaying learning something, which is what I advocate, is not the same as roleplaying being something. When one roleplays the learning process, it is separate from roleplaying being at the end of the learning process - and thus not fraud. I hope this is clear now. Is this not what you want, after all? People to actually do the things that build up to their person, instead of roleplaying a 'role' out of nowhere? And you want people to roleplay and be interesting and social on top of that, right? So that there's a feeling of authenticity, even immersion in the game?

Is it really your intention to advocate, indirectly or otherwise, going into the middle of nowhere to train skills as the new benchmark for legitimate roleplay? The only benchmark of legitimate roleplay?

Unless you would argue that, because 'roleplaying' a learning process is not mechanically supported as a mechanism for learning, it in itself is fraud... then I would still disagree with you, and I would ask you inquire with -any- Creator about the status and direction of this MUD. Everyone knows that AL is meant to come as close to realism as it can while still being enjoyable. Sorry, man, but AL's code and mechanics are not part of their own fantasy world; one can't successfully argue that; it doesn't work; it's stupid.

That's why we have emotes, and omotes, and lemotes, because playing an instrument so loudly that others in the next room can hear it... isn't coded. Being able to impale bodies on spears, isn't coded. But you can do them in the real world, and AL is a realistic world as opposed to a video game one, so pains are taken to allow these things. Everyone, down to the individual level, is expected to go out of their way to bring things to life irregardless of the mechanical limitations. Example: If one's massively injured on multiple parts, they should be in pain and not running around/doing stuff, right? It's not MUSHing; it's doing the things one would do IRL if presented with the same circumstance. It's called roleplaying. People do it.  

Dependence only upon what's implemented and what isn't harms the roleplaying experience. Consider this: being able to tie one's hands with a rope. Possible IRL (thus, meant to be possible in AL), not possible through AL mechanics. Say somebody implements it tomorrow. Why would they do such a thing? Because it's realistic, and it creates more opportunities. Is everyone now expected to roleplay as though ropes have become a new and magical invention?

Your concern about the disparity between real life and AL is a genuine one. We expect the creators to establish a world that makes sense for us - but again, it is the general and maintained expectation that AL does resemble real-life in the ways that one would intuitively think. I'm not talking about just cultural things, "Oh, Terrinor's more dangerous", but issues of physical reality. Because you don't see it happen in the game, doesn't mean it fails to happen in AL itself.

This is self-evident with the existence of vNPCs. This is the assumption we make when cities have hundreds of inhabitants, thus, we consider it stupid to kill people in broad daylight within a city. Because the guards don't come and pwn somebody, doesn't mean that they wouldn't. How would you explain this? "Oh, they'll stop you in the street but if you start something in the guardhouse where the guards are only vNPCs, they won't." That doesn't make sense. That sort of philosophy (and I don't claim that's the statement you try and make, I hope it isn't - but if it is) doesn't work.

It defies AL's theme; it defies roleplay; it defies basic logic, and adhering to that is a form of laziness/copping out in itself, as it says, "Well, if the creators haven't made it physically possible for us, then we don't have to pay any attention to it, real-life or roleplay regardless."

OOC politics are a problem. They also have nothing to do with the idea that roleplaying learning, as opposed to 'training', should be what's promoted. 'Clique' roleplay (RPing with only a few people and discluding others from the mix) is a bad thing and should be discouraged, always.

It's not mediocre acting if embedded in truth. I know you're not against being fanciful and interesting when the person actually has the skills in question. On that note, a person who has skills and uses them should go out of their way to roleplay their usage and bring it to life, however their style. More things happen in the real world than talking, grinning, smirking, swinging weapons.

Sorry, don't mean to gang up on you. And I must sound as though I intend to antagonize fighters specifically, but this goes out to everyone, whatever their chars' personalities or skills may be.

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07 Oct 2007 00:55 #5499 by Shadowslay
Replied by Shadowslay on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Aesuna's post covered what I just said, except in less words.

To everyone, and in short synopsis:

The postulate that 'coded reality' alone equals 'Terrinor reality', or that code alone defines what it is or isn't real, is false. This is evident in that people are expected to roleplay things not forced by code.

It is appropriate, even encouraged, to exercise personal judgment in doing what's 'realistic' without sole adherence to the coded world. The most sincere hopes go out to all of you, that you will aspire to play with more than what the mechanics hand to you, that you will find that balance between code-adherence and deceptive (fraudulent) RP, while still remaining true to your character and inspiring others. Thanks.

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07 Oct 2007 09:24 #5500 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
You are correct, those aren't the statements I'm trying to make. That's pretty much the story of this thread, people responding to statements I didn't make.

Any rules a twink can break an actor can break.

I've seen twinks alter their perception of vNPC's to their liking, to suit what they're doing. (or so they claim)
I've seen actors alter their perception of vNPC's to their liking, to suit what they're doing. (they actually do it, but same effect)
I've seen twinks use OOC to accomplish IC goals.
I've seen actors use OOC to accomplish IC goals.
I've seen twinks share/seek out information OOCly.
I've seen actors share/seek out information OOCly.
I've seen twinks try to convince their friends that someone should be treated as an enemy, and ask for help in killing them.
I've seen actors try to convince their friends that someone should be treated as an enemy, and help make up 'roleplay' reasons why.
I've seen twinks abuse/exploit bugs.
I've seen actors abuse/exploit bugs.

Any rule that can be broken by someone abusing the system has been broken by someone doing it in the name of 'roleplay'. Let's drop this pretense that actors are playing for everyone's enjoyment and anyone else is playing for their own selfish reasons; it's not true. It's the sort of high horsing I was talking about that drives players away from the game.

I will emphasize once again, that filling in the gaps is neccessary and beneficial. I am not arguing against filling in the gaps. I am asking for people to take the time to consider how to fill in the gaps in a neutral manner, one that won't conflict ingame with views that other players might have. I think there are many people who have taken liberties with gap filling or code replacement. It's about doing what you do, within the boundaries of the rules and respect, so that you don't interfere with anyone elses immersion.

Take a look at the longs being displayed as examples of AL's roleplay in this forum. Great stories yes, but count the number of times help emote has been violated. You are not narrators in this world. You cannot force your views and thoughts onto others. There are other players, and we hope there will be more players yet. You cannot sustain a playerbase if everyone is offending everyone else with conflicting emotes and perceptions.

Notice how when you speak of the similarities between the physical realities AL and RL, the strongest word you could use was resemble? Even among those who agree to disagree with me, their views of the world will not match. It creates confliction. The actor especially, tends to regard anyone who doesn't share a similar view of a situation as being inferior, because they think they've thought it through more. Everyone thinks their view is better, and they let it show through their game command inputs. My goal is to hopefully convince some of them to create less conflictions. That way, we won't have this ridiculous situation where you have to consider the other player's view before you do anything, adding a OOC dimension that should not be there.

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07 Oct 2007 12:53 #5501 by kaain
Replied by kaain on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Okay, I do have to admit that Lakeman has a point with someone playing a beggar, there is always food and water available so he is correct when saying this is not a reality in AL. That being said....

What I am trying to talk about here, with little sucess, is how do we move forward to make AL the best possible place for all players. I do see that the reality is there is not a need for player dependancy, it simply is not something that is required on AL. We can either roleplay this dependancy or we can create it with the way the code and AL works. The latter is I *think* what Lakeman is trying to say is genuine, as well as won't ruin the immersion for others who see acting like said beggar as strange (since everyone would have enough food given the setup.)

Once there is a framework, say making food much harder to come by, then the beggar RP would not only seem genunie but also flourish with posibilities.

This topic can continue on and on, clearly, but we could also start listing ideas to alter the way things on AL work and thus change the 'reality' that is AL.

the vNPC notion is an unique idea. I have thought, heard, been told, that we are to 'act' like vNPCs are everywhere, especially in towns. Though I do see this notion being broken by more then the vNPC killer, I see it in the Roleplaying of strange converstaions, talk of magic, etc that often happens within these vNPC zone, one is not worse then the other. A criminal, violent, killer flag would help stop the vNPC killers, but would not change that a group of RPers can talk about killing the king in any town with disregard to the vNPCs walking by.

I still personally vote for a overhall of the crafting system, not in an overly drastic way, but so that everyone can be somewhat self-sufficent (know a little bit of everything like they do now) but also so that with effort in one or two particular areas they can make/craft do things others can not. This 'new' code reality would then actually offer RP for lots of people, while keeping everyone in immersed play.

Join a guild? a trade, the guard...etc...but allow focus (if desired) to do things not every jack of all trades can do. This could be further enchanced by use of stats as well, as in a weak goblin or pura won't be the smith that a strong human could accomplish, or would make things much slower or less quality. Or a big molok with their hands and claws would certainly not sew delicate silk like someone with small agile hands.

or we could just keep this tread going nowhere.


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07 Oct 2007 15:23 #5502 by Lunar_Parhelion
Replied by Lunar_Parhelion on topic Re: Skill Spamming
This is a nitpicking, billigerant thread.

Many of the points being made here are so narrow in focus they do not take into consideration what "is" in the reality of the game -- and so they will never live to hold water, atleast not for the greater good. You fix some tiny little area of any machine, one single cog, but if you don't start in the right place or if you don't bother to fix anything else, it's all going to hell.

Rather than trying to take a dump on other people's intelligence, take their points and yours and make suggestions that would help compromise for both. Frustrations and sharing them is one thing -- which many people have done here -- but then turning around and trying to argue how much more sensible you are just makes you look like a troll.

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08 Oct 2007 03:17 #5503 by Shadowslay
Replied by Shadowslay on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Fleeting thought:

There's something with importance enough to transcend (kick the shiz out of) pretty much everything else discussed; it has nothing to do with mechanics, for it brings up no ethical issue concerning fraudulent RP. I feel silly for not mentioning this earlier.

Human emotion. (As a concept/metaphor; extended to mysrra, purae, etc).

Characters who feel. Characters who respond to the world with not merely action, but reaction. Characters who are not merely instruments of conception, but products of their experiences.

Characters who get pissed, curse at each other; characters who prefer this or that over the other and exult with joy when attaining what they want, or become dark when life turns poor for them. Characters with motives and the desire to be entertained; characters who are not strangers to sadness or suffering, and players willing to show these things - as actors, writers, and people do, and as every one of us in the MUD has the capacity to do.

That right there, embodies precisely what it means to play and give life to a character, and it alone has the power to erase any great division resulting from varying perceptions and portrayals of characters' professions, skills, or roles.

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08 Oct 2007 10:03 #5504 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Parhelion, could you be more specific? What you said could be anything. An insult thrown into the wind.

Shadowslay, I totally agree on the importance of human emotion. I do not think that it transcends the need for a consistant world, I think the two go hand in hand. I have seen both real grief and feigned grief, real anger and feigned anger, so on and so forth. I much prefer the real thing, fueled by the emotions of a real human.

Edited for typo.

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