Skill Spamming

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27 Sep 2007 22:12 #5475 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
I'm on the other side of the fence, I think life is too cheap. Players get to play these interesting concept characters that don't really care about their own lives, because all the actual politics happen OOC and the characters have nothing invested in them. Their goals are not real goals, their goals are make believe, interesting deviations from the norm created to provide entertainment.

It's quite similar to real life religions that believe in the afterlife really. "What happens here doesn't matter."

For the lack of a better example, the concept is fairly similar to say, a suicide bomber. The character's motivations are heavily affected by the idea that there is another realm, one that matters.

It's okay not to do actual things, they're boring. If there is a murderer about, don't let it affect your "role". He's just a bad roleplayer. If he kills you, messege a friend something along the lines of "lol some twink just killed me". No harm done, after all, you have more character concepts. All your friends are still on AIM. All of them agree that the guy killed you is a twink. You don't need to dynamically adjust your role to reflect the IC environment, rather, try to get the IC environment to change to better suit the roles you like to play. How to get this done? OOCly.

People know for fact God exists in our little world, and it shows.

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28 Sep 2007 00:14 #5476 by Blakat
Replied by Blakat on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Posted by: Lakemen       Posted on: Yesterday at 11:12pm
I'm on the other side of the fence, I think life is too cheap. Players get to play these interesting concept characters that don't really care about their own lives, because all the actual politics happen OOC and the characters have nothing invested in them. Their goals are not real goals, their goals are make believe, interesting deviations from the norm created to provide entertainment.
 
It's quite similar to real life religions that believe in the afterlife really. "What happens here doesn't matter."  
 
For the lack of a better example, the concept is fairly similar to say, a suicide bomber. The character's motivations are heavily affected by the idea that there is another realm, one that matters.  
 
It's okay not to do actual things, they're boring. If there is a murderer about, don't let it affect your "role". He's just a bad roleplayer. If he kills you, messege a friend something along the lines of "lol some twink just killed me". No harm done, after all, you have more character concepts. All your friends are still on AIM. All of them agree that the guy killed you is a twink. You don't need to dynamically adjust your role to reflect the IC environment, rather, try to get the IC environment to change to better suit the roles you like to play. How to get this done? OOCly.
 
People know for fact God exists in our little world, and it shows.

I think I'm missing the points that you are commenting on. Your sarcasm is noted, though maybe I'm missing what it is you wished the convey.

It's hard to find that good balance between being invested in your character and realizing it's just a game; seems people quit all to often because their character just died. You need to react to fears, if you feel your character would fear a situation (though even w/ reacting he/she might hide it and that makes sense) but there are character concepts that support 'faith' and that which would make your character 'fearless to death' because there are bigger and better things; though realistically this would be accompanied by a level of insanity (I'd imagine) because even w/ faith people fear death (usually). There is nothing wrong w/ this, there is nothing wrong w/ 'make believe' goals either. A spark of creativity for your entertainment and others entertainment is what makes the game great right?

What do you mean by “ACTUAL THINGS”, are you talking about things that don't require rp? If it's sarcasm you are trying to give off in that last paragraph, it carries no value. You sound rather bitter. Although I didn't really want to turn this personal and I could be wrong but looking at your last few posts you don't seem to support the aspect of role-playing or even a positive/progressive attitude.

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28 Sep 2007 03:12 #5477 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
I've taken a bit to consider whether my words were sarcastic, but I'm not so sure. I described the current situation. Obviously I don't agree with it. I made no pretense of agreeing with it. I cannot disagree with a problem if I don't state what it is.

This has nothing to do with faith or religion, I was just using real life religion as a possible comparison to people not respecting the ingame system and trying to replace parts of it through OOC means. People do not play under the system because they feel they can conjure better storylines than the world creates. As for roleplay, the fact that you're looking at my points and somehow concluding that I don't support roleplay is exactly what's wrong with roleplay in AL today.


Some thoughts on roleplaying:

If someone is "roleplaying" a hunter that walks around acting like a hunter but doesn't actually hunt, then they are in fact roleplaying someone that is pretending to be a hunter. People always want to roleplay roles they don't actually want to play. The result is that their characters are not genuine.

Why do people think playing in the game world and "roleplay" are mutually exclusive? They are one and the same. It's disturbing to me that "roleplay" has become the definition for a very specific type of interaction. Roleplay is everything your character does. You cannot write over what the game world defines. There are interactive worlds that do not define things, AL isn't one of them. AL is a MUD built on the foundation of realism.

This foundation has been erroded by what I view as selfish desire, the constant player demand for various perks that will make this or that easier for them. Things given away suffer from reduced value.

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28 Sep 2007 11:38 #5478 by Blakat
Replied by Blakat on topic Re: Skill Spamming
LAKEMEN “People do not play under the system because they feel they can conjure better storylines than the world creates.  People do not play under the system because they feel they can conjure better storylines than the world creates.”

There are plenty of good things the game offers, but the other great thing about the world is that it offers freedom to be creative and come up with ideas.  Maybe I’m constantly misunderstanding your tone but it sounds like you think people shouldn’t come up with their own ideas.
LAKEMEN “If someone is "role-playing" a hunter that walks around acting like a hunter but doesn't actually hunt, then they are in fact role-playing someone that is pretending to be a hunter. People always want to role-play roles they don't actually want to play. The result is that their characters are not genuine.”

The value of characters –actually- doing what it is they claim to do is great.  At the same time, you must take into consideration that time that you are not logged in.  While you are logged off, I see nothing wrong with assuming your character is hunting if you are a hunter, holy crap!  You are relying on the reality that your character doesn’t just sit in one place while you are not playing him/her!  MY GOD!
LAKEMEN “Why do people think playing in the game world and "role-play" are mutually exclusive? They are one and the same. It's disturbing to me that "role-play" has become the definition for a very specific type of interaction. Role-play is everything your character does. You cannot write over what the game world defines. There are interactive worlds that do not define things, AL isn't one of them. AL is a MUD built on the foundation of realism.”

I agree, ideally you want to have actual skill to back up your character concept instead of just RPing as if you had skill.  This is sort of a fine line though, I mean I see nothing wrong with a character acting as if he/she had skills that he/she does not, after all, does this not happen in real life?  Additionally, you can often start with pretty decent skills in certain area’s, just because you don’t have 10 hours a day to lvl so they are maxed out doesn’t mean you cannot boast to be skilled in one thing or another.  Role-playing is so much more than –emoting- it’s approaching the world as your character would (not how –you- would).
LAKEMEN "This foundation has been eroded by what I view as selfish desire, the constant player demand for various perks that will make this or that easier for them. Things given away suffer from reduced value.”

Could you provide an example?  “Things given away reduce value”… I have –never- heard anyone say they felt AL gave too much away, in fact quite the contrary.  “Various perks” make the game exciting and keep people around, it’s call incentive.

I really don’t mean to disagree with everything you say, but I just can’t help it.  


ANOTHER PLAYER TOLD ME ME THIS ABOUT YOUR POINTS:

"It's all about careful management of your time. Nobody would rate you badly if you were to take them out into the woods and emote with them while you did a few handy crafts. He's saying that people shouldn't be so quick to brand people "twinks" just because they level their skills, and that you can level and RP too.

Skill spammage in this game is a BITCH. I personally hate it.

Now, when someone with high skills shows up, and all these people just emoted being warriors, then the emoters shouldn't be mad because they all got killed. If you don't train, then you can't really do much in the game. Sure, you can RP a lot of things, but the code is always there. People are VERY fast to get mad and sad because they lost their characters to another player, and it creates a huge rift between different groups of them."


If those are the points you were trying to make, I agree.

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28 Sep 2007 13:45 #5479 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
You're right. Even in real life, many people pretend to be what they aren't, pretend to know more than they do. They're called hacks and frauds.

I met someone once that claimed to be a skilled herbalist, always spoke of going off on journeys and gathering interesting herbs. Then I watched as they struggled to gather anything. Nice story and all, but the immersion is gone. The person is not credible.

Somehow, I don't think the rpprofile there reads, "He pretends to be a herbalist, so skilled in his act that few suspect that he rarely comes in contact with herbs." No, the person is actually trying to "roleplay" a real herbalist, but unwilling to do anything more than that. And often this type of player will thumb their nose at someone who actually gathers herbs, because they are so above such twink things.

Anything but the real thing creates inconsistancy.



Things given away reduce value includes anything that is given to players to make their lives easier at the cost of IC realism. This includes both things like players being encouraged to create roles they don't actually wish to play out, and on the code side, things like travel being really fast or food being really easy to get. If you ask players whether they want more and easier, the answer is always yes. Seems ideal, but it doesn't necessary increase their loyalty or love of the game.

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28 Sep 2007 15:06 #5480 by Jinkarto
Replied by Jinkarto on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Yeah, those were my thoughts, Lakemen.

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28 Sep 2007 15:38 #5481 by Blakat
Replied by Blakat on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Yes, those who claim to have skills that they don’t are “hacks and frauds”.  Which is fine with me, the game is bound to have them, and frankly frauds can make the game rather interesting.  Though getting pissed at someone because they have –more- skill because they have spent more time lvling is stupid, I agree.  The ability to create illusions, or make yourself look better that you are is something I love about the game, how often in real life do ‘fighters’ for example, say they can’t be beaten, to gain an edge of intimidation.  That herbalist deserved to be laughed at and mocked for his false boasting, that’s all.  

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28 Sep 2007 16:07 #5482 by kaain
Replied by kaain on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Life on Accursed Lands is to easy. Which is ironic since it is called what it is. Except for the complete newbie, anyone with any character can have water, food, money within a few hours of game play. This simply is to me the most unrealisitic part of AL, and AL strives towards realism. Food is either way to plentiful or way to nourshing, water is way to filling. When you realize that 2 RL hours is a whole day, and then think about how little you need to eat or drink during that time it should be clear.

Now, that being said there are lots of other ways AL is both hard and easy, but making them harder should attract RP, not drive people away. There is little to RP in feast times because everyone gets sick of the parties at some time. Even when people complain that some skills are to hard to learn, they are also way to easy, it is not hard to see people that over a period of a few RL weeks learn to be carpenters, glass-blowers, hunters, smiths, etc....Sure you could learn these things, but in a life time, not over the span of a few years.

Now I am no coder but I just know there is a way to have it give a bonus to people that don't diversify, not that you can't but if you don't then you learn what you are trying to do quicker. Perhaps years later you have time to try the next thing.

This also goes to how the crafts need to be increased in difficulty, and the algorithms used to level say whittling need to be adjusted so it is feasable to master it. Then have somethings that it takes a master to make, that people would need.

:'(

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28 Sep 2007 19:22 #5483 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
There is nothing wrong with people roleplaying hacks.

My problem with the entire thing is when people are effectively playing hacks but they are unaware of it because they THINK they are allowed to dictate what their characters are, in the name of interaction. They THINK they are intellectually superior to players who follow the system, that they are above it. The entire point of these posts are to perhaps change a few minds on true roleplay, an attempt to get people to roleplay their characters as they really are, not what they want them to be.

You are players in the world, not narrators. It is a MULTI user domain. The system narrates.

The fact that Accursed Lands is too easy is thanks mostly to years of player complaints. Most creators joined up because they want to make the game better for everyone, as like I said before, players want more and they want easier. What ends up happening is, they try to make the players happy but it doesn't usually benefit the system.

Sometimes it's the little things that have a big effect. Take for instance, the combination of vastly increased travel speeds, the increase of plant regrowth and the ease of gathering, and the increase of nourishment from meat, the relative ease of hunting. Players asked for these things, surely they benefit everyone right?

Anyone who has played AL since before those changes remembers when there were hotspots in the game, where characters went to for food and protection. There were always a couple of people coming to and from these areas, because the world was harsh and having a place that offered life and protection was wonderful. All players, oldbies and newbies alike made it their responsibility to keep the area safe and educate any newcomers, and whenever food was low, everyone made it their responsibility to restock the food supplies. Pineview is the first area to come to mind of course. Who remembers that? And that kind of thing was neither planned nor intended. It's what happened, because that's what a realistic game world creates.

So the big surprise was that players that were given more time to roleplay actually ended up congregating less, running all around by themselves and struggling to find one another for interaction. This further justified OOC communication. Did anyone see this coming? A few did, but nobody liked those negative jerks anyway. Heh.

Anyway, a few people have made attempts to create gathering areas. Chibible and Ladyimp come to mind, but I'm sure there have been others. Noble attempts, but did they/will they last? Nah. Artificially created, they require maintainence and continued interest. A robust game system sustains itself.

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01 Oct 2007 09:33 #5484 by Lunar_Parhelion
Replied by Lunar_Parhelion on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Here's an idea for those people who "pretend" to be something they can not back up (such as with the skilled herbalist who can't gather):

You do NOT have to start your character out as an all-knowing, competant craftsman.  Your character is YOUNG when its created -- depending on if you pay attention to 'help age' or not, you could even venture to say that they are still in their early teens.  There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with starting your character out as a greenhorn for anything; sure, you can RP having a knack for something, but you're unskilled.  Find a master, RP that apprentice.  There is far more depth to be had in this route than saying you're a hero right out the door.

On the other hand, someone who does nothing but train his skills first and then RPs sort of loses my respect.  There's a balance -- I understand that some concepts require that you have some knowledge of something.  But this doesn't mean you need to be superb in it, and it also means that you probably shouldn't be writing up a concept for a grizzled, scarred warrior when you know your character hasn't really trained that way.

People should also be allowed to play whatever they desire -- to a certain extent.  I've seen a lot of crimes against theme done in the name of roleplaying a fun character, and this is where I draw the line.  If your race wouldn't or COULDN'T do something, please do not do it.  This goes out to all the scholarly, magic-studying grakkon (goblins), the savage, war-mongering bramen, and the thieving, mercenary mysrrae I see out there.

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