Skill Spamming

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26 Sep 2007 20:11 #5465 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
I don't see why having diverse skills would have any affect on player shops.

The number of player shops that are in use is directly affected by how much money players are making to pay the upkeep. If a player spends more time pretending to a hunter than actually going out to hunt things, then they're unlikely to be able to afford the rent. Same applies for any other occupation.

Shop ownership has fallen far more drastically than the playerbase has; at some points almost every shop in the game world has been taken and shops with good locations were practically unattainable.

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26 Sep 2007 23:49 #5466 by Alwyn
Replied by Alwyn on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Ok, the whole player shops thing was partly (though not entirely) due to the fact that you could dump all your money in your shop, but when you suicided (yes, just dated myself.  Surrender for the newer group) it stuck around like your player never vanished off the face of the earth or whatever planet we live on now.  However, to prevent characters being able to roll over stuff, shops are cleaned and up for rent they go.  So everytime you start a new player now, every shop you had is cleaned and put back up for rent.  Is this what you want?  Maybe, maybe not.  Honestly if someone dies in real life and owns a store, either the store closes or someone else takes over.

As for fetishes, it was a reasonable way though possibly outdated way to get rid of player killers mainly.  Before they were in the game, you automatically rezzed after three and a half hours.  Shortening the time was also "progress" though before, you lost more skills, more stats and generally wanted to be with a friend at all times, just in case you died.  Now you can loose your character, but you wait less to be rezzed, and for those who complain about when they're char dies and having to wait an hour and fifteen, try playing pre-wipe.

This game will never be perfect, though honestly not everything is up to the creators to solve.  Usually the first person to complain saw the fault in himself and didn't want to admit it, or maybe even changed it, but when other people do it, it's time to do something about it.  (And no, I'm not saying anything wrong about this post)  Just remember the solution starts with you, then work your way out.  Will people continue to spam skills, probably.  Do people do it in real life, yes.  I code for hours on end, or used to draw random pictures, or write random stories just for practice and or fun.  Except for seeing continues, I did the exact same thing in real life as people do here.  Cram a skill until I get good enough, then use it to accompish said task.

And don't get me wrong.  I'd love to see change, but there are just some things there doesn't seem to be a better way without restricting the way people can play.  If we honestly buckled down and said you can only raise your skills so much everytime you play, then:

1) Fewer creators would play, as we have half the free time you do (split between creating and playing)
2) We'd loose players because raising a skill is already too difficult at times
3) We'd loose the realism of being able to practice hard day in and day out and finally realize that dream.  (Even if it is to be a twink)

Besides, in the end, it is a game.  Enjoy the features it has, suggest new one and try to help us identify what could be made better.  If it has to do with the way other people play.  Set yourself as an example and be done with it.  Maybe post something here, but end in end, you change this world as much as the next person.  Do what you can and don't let the rest bother you.

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27 Sep 2007 00:38 #5467 by meemo
Replied by meemo on topic Re: Skill Spamming

I don't see why having diverse skills would have any affect on player shops.

The number of player shops that are in use is directly affected by how much money players are making to pay the upkeep. If a player spends more time pretending to a hunter than actually going out to hunt things, then they're unlikely to be able to afford the rent. Same applies for any other occupation.

Shop ownership has fallen far more drastically than the playerbase has; at some points almost every shop in the game world has been taken and shops with good locations were practically unattainable.


What I was trying to get at were two things:

a: if everyone diversifies, there is no need for you to seek out goods elsewhere, because you can pretty much do it all yourself. I believe that if it weren't so there would be more opportunities for roleplay.
b: if a desire to own a shop is there, there is little point as there is no market for your goods. You can still own a shop; you'll just be funding it in other ways.

By your statement that shop ownership has fallen so drastically, even more than the pbase - it can point toward the possibility that as a younger game, the skill diversification wasn't there, thus creating a market for craftable goods.

Don't get me wrong, I think AL is a great game and I will still play it. I'll just be specializing, rather than diversifying, which (I hope) will allow me to have a few more opportunities to seek others out for roleplay.

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27 Sep 2007 03:51 #5468 by Shadowslay
Replied by Shadowslay on topic Re: Skill Spamming
It is reasonable to claim that player characters having diverse skills may impact the economy.

For a player-run economy to happen, two things are needed: supply by players, and demand by players.

Going off of Lakemen's point about hunters actually hunting: hunters (and other crafters) need to practice their crafts, but that alone isn't enough; their items need to be sold to/bought by players. A guy goes out and skins a hundred deer and sells all the pelts to Korian's tannery, that's not developing a player-run economy. Thus, being willing to actually practice one's craft contributes to the supply pool... now, what we need is demand.

It needs to be worthwhile to buy things from other players. If each character is an autonomous being, capable of living by themselves with no aid from others (IRL; possible, existent, occasionally doable, certainly the aspiration of many but uncommon), because they make everything for themselves, then the dream of a player economy doesn't happen; every aspect of an 'economy' becomes NPC-dependent because nobody but NPCs will buy things that aren't rare or exceptionally valuable items. I believe this describes the status quo.

In a world where everyone has, say, the skills involved with 1-2 trades, then everyone becomes dependent on everyone else; the hunter has to make a living by selling his pelts instead, so more pelts go for sale. The leatherworker doesn't hunt for his own pelts, so he buys them from players to make leather which he sells, and so forth.

I'm not an economics major or anything, but it seems sensible to say that the idea of one person or corporation (defined in the broadest sense possible - to mean a group or body of people) having something that another doesn't, and lacking that which another has, is crucial to contemporary trade on such a scale as between even  nations.

Personally I would like to see more characters that stay true to their roles and personas rather than branching out to master everything from fighting to theft to magickry and myriad crafts, but cannot make the assertion that such a change is necessary for a player-run economy to fluorish; it would certainly help.
It would also help if making money was actually an essential part of daily life, instead of merely something one did to run PC shops (which are more for storage than anything else, because few things actually get bought and profited from), or to save up for expensive novelties. If baking were to be implemented tomorrow, in a world where everyone hunts for meat and forages hawkshelf, would it be a practical craft worth anything more than RP kudos?

Some suggestions for change have been given by Dragon Idea and Synthesis.


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27 Sep 2007 09:08 #5469 by Lakemen
Replied by Lakemen on topic Re: Skill Spamming
It might, but not to a significant extent. If you think about the types of items most players use/consume, I think you'll agree that they probably aren't making it themselves. When a player needs a bigger pack, tools and weapons, or clothes suitable for their character, they aren't heading out into the woods and coming out with those things. They're heading for a NPC shop. Why?

Because players are not competitive on pricing, because players are not devoted enough to maintain consistant stock. Fickle creatures, we.

Even if  players open shops that are consistantly stocked with items that other players cannot easily make themselves, they will still struggle to pay the rent. For starters, it will take a great deal of time for the shops are known to be a viable alternative to the NPC ones. Pricing may not be competitive. Most importantly though, and going back to one of my original points here.. players don't have money. Their consumption rate isn't very high. If you made every sword sold in the game, you still might not be making enough to pay the rent. Once someone has their "look" set up, if they aren't doing things in the world, they aren't needing things, breaking things or losing things. This is where I go off on a tangent about how interaction driven roleplay isn't very realistic, but I'm sure you've all heard it before.



A player run economy is a real economy, with benefits and drawbacks. I don't know if real is what players want anymore. Seems like almost every problem I discuss in any part of AL comes back to that.

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27 Sep 2007 09:56 #5470 by kaain
Replied by kaain on topic Re: Skill Spamming
I for one think it is a problem that needs to be fixed, and soon.  It is hard to advertise ourselves as a place where one can be a smith, a carpenter, or a warrior when really such is not the case.  Sure you can do all these crafts, but you can not live the life of a carpenter unless that means whittling short wooden handles or selling table legs, ie...boring.

But Lakeman is right, people complain but then vote for wanting alchemy over all things, such is the problem as I see it.  Our player shops (storage places) are a faliure, complete and total.  NEVER are shop owners at their shops, haggling, bargining, or even roleplaying we just buy things (if ever) from the magic tables.

But alas, alchemy and face concealing garb are what we want!

So Ideas: (and only one or two because I don't want to waste my time when really I am not sure anyone really wants change)

1. Adjust how crafting system works, make it so you can learn every craft, but the more you choose to learn the lower you can get with each. (Learn whittling, smithing, glass blowing, bandage making, leather working, and all the rest and you cap out at knows a little bit about)

or Learn carepentry and whittling and become a master at them.

To do this have to also adjust the difficulty of crafts...resonable to have people making torches, but arrows? think anyone makes a good arrow in a days time of practice?  I say not if you must feed your family with wht you kill.

2. No more NPC shops (this won't really fix anything, just make newbies suffer even more)

3. Force people to choose a career, a craft or whatever you call it to train in, don't let them get any higher then a few things about in anything else (making torches should be something anyone can handle - though perhaps a crappy one)

4. Skill grind in the forest and vote for alchemy and face concealing garb while venting some minor irritations on the forum.

:-?

Edit:

Allow people to make everything as we do now, but also add in a new layer of specializtion.  There are plenty of creators chomping at the bit to make fun and unique items.  We could have those items be only craftable by specialists in game, not NPC shops.  Lets have these items not repairable by a freaking file! (I mean really) And lets have people take these items back to the shops to repair (holy crap, anyone imagine the RP?) - wait, sorry....alchemy and face concealing garb...I keep forgetting what people really really want.

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27 Sep 2007 10:15 #5471 by Vampir
Replied by Vampir on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Some restrictions would impact the freedom that AL greatly offers, and they would impact that freedom to possible lose of players who enjoy that freedom. If you restric the players to have more crafts or to gain them much more difficult, they can get frustrated and leave. I remember getting bored in the begining when i learned that i must spend hours of real time whittling so i can make my first torch. Skills from chargen can be set on higher level maybe to fight that, but thats a thing to seriously discuss...

In our nature is to go beyond the problem and try to solve it. So if a PC wants to do leatherworking, he will need great deal of coin for tanning acid, he will need some coin more to purchase the raw skins, and he will need to have it frequently in order to actually learn and craft something. Instead, after some time of frustration where he couldnt get the coins/raw material, he begins to do things on his own, with his goal in mind. So he becomes a hunter, or trader in some other area to aquire whats needed, to solve the problem. It's not because he wants to be one-man-army(/tannery/leathershop) but because there simply have to be much more interested players online to provide for what he needs when he enters the world.

EDIT: Face concealing garments and alchemy have my votes as well. Like that idea on unique items given to "specialists" in areas of crafting. Make them do the job!

Yet again, rp wise, there is nothing wrong in seeing a character working (being decent in) different areas, or even most of them. Skills do develop over time, even over great periods of time, so dont push it like there is some uber-noob who crafts everything and can pwn everybody and casts on the side..

Quality help, assistance to new PCs in lands, changing the course of economy and many other things could happen with greater number of more diverse players. If you have 9 hunters around, and 1 woodworker, there isnt going to be much association economy wise. There's a bigger chance logger will end up dead.

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27 Sep 2007 10:30 #5472 by kaain
Replied by kaain on topic Re: Skill Spamming

Some restrictions would impact the freedom that AL greatly offers, and they would impact that freedom to possible lose of players who enjoy that freedom. If you restric the players to have more crafts or to gain them much more difficult, they can get frustrated and leave. I remember getting bored in the begining when i learned that i must spend hours of real time whittling so i can make my first torch. Skills from chargen can be set on higher level maybe to fight that, but thats a thing to seriously discuss...


Why this whole frustrations board is a waste of time, people don't really want change, they don't really want to play a role (unless that role is do everything)

My point exactly.

So just forget the notion of playershops....and when alchemy and face concealing garb make it in, expect everyone to do that to. :'(

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27 Sep 2007 11:31 #5473 by Ritor
Replied by Ritor on topic Re: Skill Spamming
It is my opinion that the main problem that causes all of this. Overproduction of wooden objects that made people extremely rich, constant skill spamming, jack-of-all-trades, etc is the fact players themselves do 'not' want permadeath in the game. Oh they like the idea of being able to perm others, but once they end up having their character last 6 months and in current state of things, it's 6 months of 'non' stop skill spamming, 6 months of 'hard' 'boring' work. The idea of losing their character permanently and having need to 'work' for another 6 months is ... unbearable.  

So at first they make their characters close or near to unbeatable by most NPCs, and then it's a continious skill race with other players. Each things takes hard boring work and effort. This prevents people from discarding characters the moment they decide they are no longer interested in roleplaying out the roles they built for the characters, so they begin moulding 'same' characters to fit into other different roles that they're interested to try in. That's why branching other myriad of skills is so common, that's why brigands become guardsmen and vice versa. Simply because discarding or retiring a 'good' 'established' character who holds a niche that no longer interests you and cooking up a new character with a role that 'does' interest you is not viable, since then you'll need to skill spam yourself into godhood first.

That's why in my opinion, there are people who dislike death possibilities in GM ran events. Because GM events do not rely on skills known to the players. GM events can vary and be a challlenge no matter what the skill level the character has. So death is 'always' possible, and 6 months of constant skillspam is no longer a 90% defense.

What are the solutions of that? That is indeed a difficulty. My personal opinion? Make life ... cheaper. Give creatures which 'cannot' be defeated by a single PC. Crazed Elephants, rhinoes, and so on. Creatures that no matter how skilled you are, will always kill you and are ment to either be taken down in teams of 4-6 or be avoided. Creatures that 'would' seek out players and chase them even if they're squares away. Creatures that are to be treated as 'force of nature'. Aswell as other ideas discussed in other topics. More difficult ways to attain food, etc.

Give GMs license to kill and be protected from whining. This way ... if you spent 6 months of twinking and murdering in the city and then go into the wilderness where no animal can kill you and log off. GMs 'should' be able to ''kill' you in this wilderness for your crimes. Ofcourse, not by "invisible force insta kills you and that's that", but a large citizen mobs that come from the city you were murdering in who you can 'not' kill or escape. Manage to roleplay out ? Beautifull, skill wise ? ... No, you cant avoid death this way. One against a hundred? Good luck.

Make death more possible and viable. This way, if keeping your character alive for over a month, means they're either keeping to the city, or are 'very' 'very' careful and wise. There wont be so much skill spamming, because skills will no longer be an 'answer' to everything. And spending a month skill spamming becomes useless, because you can lose it in an instant as easilly as a person who didnt spend a 'second' skill spamming.

Making survival hard and only 'slightly' dependant on skills can help alleviate many things. Character makes too much money off wooden weapons and is doing it non stop ?Who cares, it's his loss. He might still end up dying off in a month and all those coin vanished. Character keeps branching into the myriad of various skills? That takes months and months of skill practiice, in a world where surviving a month is a feat, the odds of branching this way would become much smaller,and more importantly ... not that important, they can still die if not as easilly, as frequently as a skillless onee.

But many players are not ready to accept such a thing can they? They worked 'hard' skillspamming their 2 year characters, their whole 'experience' of the game revolves around these two specific characters. And should they accidentally get permed ... odds are, that's when AL as a whole ends for them.

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27 Sep 2007 12:39 #5474 by kaain
Replied by kaain on topic Re: Skill Spamming
Such good thoughts oh mr. Wickedwicker.....but good luck!
I do hope that this can be a problem that gets solved, I really really do, but I also bet against it. :'(

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